Curse

aB- · Jun 09, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

ArenaNet is digging themselves into a hole here. At this point, I really do believe that their skill-balancing department has gone rogue, as has their Community Relations department. I have no clue what ANet thinks its doing, but I can tell you it's bad for business.

Or you could look at it as good for business. Overpowered skills like Ursan are from the last chapter, EotN. Many groups now look only for Ursans. The result? People must buy EotN in order to compete with the strength of others, attracting more sales. It's cruel, but profitable.

Sjeng · Jun 09, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

lol wut?

"I know you just proved me wrong but THIS ISN'T NAZISM."

Wellllll NO SHIT SHERLOCK. The hitler comparison is a good one because whether its a historical fact or not there are people who have the opinion I stated. yes! there are actually people who have the opinion that the Holocaust never happened, and deny history. Amazing how people have different opinions about it....

I never said you proved me wrong. on the contrary. don't put words in my mouth.
I never contradicted the fact that there aren't people who share your opinion.
Try to read. And there's no need for sarcasm, I haven't talked down to you, now have I? Keep it up and I'll report you for being rude repeatedly and uncalled for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Of course according to you, these people who say Nazism is alright, Hitler is the best man on the planet, and the Holocaust never happened, are perfectly alright...which makes me wonder what kind of person you really could be? Or are you willing to admit opinions can be wrong, as a fact?

I also never stated that thinking nazism is great is perfectly alright. Where the hell did you read that??? I said... oh forget it, just read my posts better or I won't even bother responding to you anymore.

I'm more than willing to admit opinions can be wrong, but not as a fact. Saying someone's opinion is wrong is also an opinion in itself. Of course most people think WWII and everything that happened then is bad, because that's humane. Only twisted / discriminating people think it was great. So that creates a widely shared opinion of a great majority of people who think straight (thankfully). And the majority would then make that opinion so wide-spread, that it becomes a generally accepted "fact".

But this discussion doesn't have a majority of people saying this is wrong or right. And that's because it's about a GAME, not WWII. NOW do yuo see what I'm trying to tell you? If not, don't bother responding to my posts anymore, cuz I won't repsond to yours any longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Screw it, I'll just pick up an example of "Don't like it don't use it".

Me: Hey mum, I'm smoking weed now and it feels good!
Mum: What?! Stop that RIGHT now!
Me: Don't like it don't use it, it doesn't affect you!

Or even then, don't like Ursan, don't PuG.

So, you're telling us Ursan is bad for your health and illegal, and that there are NO PUGs in the whole wide game that like to go balanced? You need to find a better guild my friend. Please at least try to find some better comparisons people, lol.

Many people feel GW has taken a complete 180 turn. I just don't feel that way. That's my only point. And all I'm trying to do is explain why I think DL-DU is valid, so people might still enjoy GW. But hey, if you really want to whine about it and quit GW, be my guest. I don't think it's worth all the fuss. (I do like discussions though ^^)

Yichi · Jun 09, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

Many people feel GW has taken a complete 180 turn. I just don't feel that way. That's my only point. And all I'm trying to do is explain why I think DL-DU is valid, so people might still enjoy GW. But hey, if you really want to whine about it and quit GW, be my guest. I don't think it's worth all the fuss. (I do like discussions though ^^)

The DL-DU argument is valid to a certian point. I can say that if you prefer using a blue pen over a black one then the don't like it, dont use it argument can be applied.

The origional argument here is that with the recent skill seperation, title grind, etc. that has been added to the game has shifted the origional focus of the game away from it's main selling point the game origionally had and the origonal design of the game. Just because you have the choice of wether or not to use it, does not mean that it hasn't effected the game in a way that was completely 180 degrees away from the origonal design and concept of the game. When you can prove this otherwise, the DL-DU argument might have a leg to stand on in this discussion, but atm it is nothing more than a huge falacy.

Abedeus · Jun 09, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

So, you're telling us Ursan is bad for your health and illegal, and that there are NO PUGs in the whole wide game that like to go balanced? You need to find a better guild my friend. Please at least try to find some better comparisons people, lol.

Actually, Ursan is bad for your skill and is illegal (imbalanced - any other MMORPG and other would have it nerfed super-fast). There are no pugs. 3 months ago, maybe there were, now none. Pug =/= guild, but we can't go with guild all the time (since guild isn't going for what I want all the time, sometimes they go somewhere where I'm not needed/I don't have a char, like Cryway in Deep/Urgoz or Monk there).

Oh, and Tyla is a nub, but he is in a good alliance and plays balanced alliance teams often.

Quote:

Many people feel GW has taken a complete 180 turn. I just don't feel that way. That's my only point. And all I'm trying to do is explain why I think DL-DU is valid, so people might still enjoy GW. But hey, if you really want to whine about it and quit GW, be my guest. I don't think it's worth all the fuss. (I do like discussions though ^^)

Then you are living in a denial. I know it's sweet, but still... You can pretend Nazi's are okay, holocaust was ,,clearing space in the World'' and Hitler was a good German. But it's still living in denial.

Quote:

really want to whine about it and quit GW

Yeah, and expect GW2 will be successful with how A.Net is ignoring customers. You think Blizzard's WoW would be successful it they didn't support Diablo 2/Starcraft/Warcraft 3 after three-four years? Of course not. Maybe they would be lucky, but... yeah. Poland could have won against Germany yesterday if we were lucky, but we weren't ;d

Tyla · Jun 09, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

So, you're telling us Ursan is bad for your health and illegal, and that there are NO PUGs in the whole wide game that like to go balanced? You need to find a better guild my friend. Please at least try to find some better comparisons people, lol.

The fact you're restricted from PuGs still stands.

And the fact that Ursan, much like other blessings are against the original game design.

And why should you join a guild JUST to be able to play with real players now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedus

Oh, and Tyla is a nub, but he is in a good alliance and plays balanced alliance teams often.

Whatever, Abedus.

(Notice the spelling, fool.)

around · Jun 09, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

So, you're telling us Ursan is bad for your health and illegal, and that there are NO PUGs in the whole wide game that like to go balanced? You need to find a better guild my friend. Please at least try to find some better comparisons people, lol.

I'd point out the irony of finding a guild to join PUGs but I have a feeling you wouldn't get it.

SmokingHotImolation · Jun 09, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjen

read this, this and this before responding with something that has been said 1671 pages ago. And don't call people with a different opinion than yours retards please. You're getting personal, and I don't like it.

I'll even quote the part that's been done, so we can put aside such ridiculous overpowered skill arguments:

Oh, didnt see all the arguments that were identical to mine. Sorry about that. And also that i got a little carried away, sorry "DL-DU"-guys.
But i still stand by my opinion. And i still think that my example, along with all the other examples like that are very valid.

Turtle222 · Jun 10, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeah, and expect GW2 will be successful with how A.Net is ignoring customers. You think Blizzard's WoW would be successful it they didn't support Diablo 2/Starcraft/Warcraft 3 after three-four years? Of course not. Maybe they would be lucky, but... yeah. Poland could have won against Germany yesterday if we were lucky, but we weren't ;d

Can you not get it through your head and stop comparing Anet to Blizzard? D2 was the fastest selling pc game of all time. Ofcourse blizz are going to support it and other popular games. That gets its customers to buy more of their products such as wow. Having 10,000,000 subscribers giving you roughly $15/£8 a month means you have the money to support such games. Anet are poor. Simple as that. They do not have a stable income and i'm pretty sure the liquidity of their assets is going down the shithole.

Pay Anet monthly, and then you will see improvement. Until then, for god's sake stop comparing two companies with a different selling strategy.

Melody Cross · Jun 10, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So we (currently) have 2 people - who are anti-current state - and will not be supporting them any longer.
So ... why should they cater to your wishes and views instead of the people who might actually support them?

Because customer loyalty is a two way street. Much of the "vision" argument that people are using to say Anet has betrayed their fans stems from a feeling of abandonment by the company. Its not a "You didn't support me, so I won't support you" argument. Its a "Why have you abandoned us" question, met with anger and threats to leave.

Arenanet was singular in its concept when GW was introduced as a CORPG, not an MMO. Not only did they have a supiorior PvP platform than many tactical game then and now, they had an excellent PvE package that--with effort and skill--players could transition to.

The more this changes, the more people will cry out.

People are leaving the game over this. Friends and guildies, I'm seeing the same creeping exodus that befell HA a year ago. While EQers and WoW players may champion GW2's list of ever ending changes to GW1's design, I frankly doubt that GW will maintain the clout to draw them from their platforms, especially if their once most staunch supporters deride them for "selling out". Entertainment companies with dirty reputations, I have observed from past experience, are less likely to draw more business...and the people they do get will be of considerably less caliber to those they may be losing over this.

Anet appears to be taking a dump on balance, a staple of game play and one they once excelled at (over the competition; hardcore PvPers may feel free to argue that point, but they were still better than WoW or EQ2 in that department!). Pre-EotN, GW had a name synonymous with challenging PvE and PvP. Now their greatest draw will be "no monthly fees, but read the small print". Even that wellspring will be dry up once users realize that--as with the BMP--they can insert whatever they want into the game and force you to buy it to remain an effective team member. If you've ever played other Korean designed "no monthly fee" MMOs then you know what I'm describing.

So...if this trend continues from Anet we'll not simply be left with a purchasing system that can screw us at whim, but also broken game mechanics that many players left MMOs for in the first place...and bought GW because they were "different".

What, I ask, is going to separate GW2 from those other MMOs? The games millions of players leave because they don't like the way they worked.

The answer, if these trends continue, is that nothing will separate GW from the competition. Other than name, they'll be the same crappy game that we all left and flocked to Anet to avoid; they'll be the same garbage we didn't want to play before...and didn't.

As for "those who support them"...they already have games. Why would they leave theirs for one that is a carbon copy of what they already play? there will be a burst of people who buy it...and just as quickly stop playing it. The type of gamers they cater to right now are...a fickle breed. Banking on their support is ill advised.

From my chair anyway.

I hope this answers your question.

GGs

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Some may find comparing AN to Blizzard interesting once they get to know who created AN.

I know who created Anet and am well aware of the connection the founding designers have with the Battlenet project. What upsets me is that they left Blizzard to persue a different kind of game and it was successful. So now that they have succeeded, they wish to clone the game they left.

Its not Anet that I blame for this, though. not directly. I put it on their shoulders, because they may have a chance to get away...from NCSoft and its cantankerous titles. Make no mistake, its NCSoft playing a factor in the design of the next cake that worries me so much. And while I fear Anet will get it, and eat it, they won't long enjoy it.

I expect them to end up choking on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

Forum posters may be a minority, but unlike the 'uncaring' majority, they offer ANet valuable criticism and ideas for the game's improvement. This is especially true of the distinct few who have large amounts of knowledge/expertise in the game.

Because this subject still erks me, I will take one more go at it.

Forum posters are a minority...of players who represent many facets of the majority. PvPers, PvEers, PvPvEers, they are individual from their respective groups when they come here and share their views. This does not make them better or worse, by any definition. In this very thread we have posters from many diverse groups. From top 10 GvGers, to retired PvPers or stone cold noobs; From the 24/7 dungeon tromping fanatics to the casual, once a week "when I can" PvEer.

And, unfortunate IMHO, but every voice is out there, we do have plenty of Gimmies in the crowd tonight.

It is this diversity of players that makes one look to the forums for guidance and suggestion. Sometimes, it is successful. Sometimes...we get this mess...

So, yes. Forum posters are a minority. But that does not make their varying in-game experiences any less a representation of the majority when taken as the whole. It is when individuals try to speak for the majority that I would take issue.

DreamWind · Jun 10, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

This thread is getting ridiculously boring with people continually posting the same garbage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Knowing and/or caring more about a franchise than its producers is a hallmark of fanboyism gone overboard. It's just a game

The players typically WILL know more about the game than the devs. The devs don't play the game as much, they just develop it. It is usually a good idea for the devs to listen to input from their game's biggest fans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A.net doesn't consider it a "problem".
If you do - that makes you wrong.

So ... how did it ruin the game for YOU?

If Anet doesn't consider it a problem, then they are simply a bad company. The game was SOLD TO PEOPLE based on the idea that overpowered crap that let you breeze through the game would not be made. Skill>time and competitive. If they take your money for a certain product then completely change the product after you bought it, that is a problem.

What other ways does it ruin the game for people? Many ways. Too many to list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

oh, btw, Regina said they are discussing Ursan Blessing on her journal, and some think its a problem, and some don't, so being dumb and putting the entire team as being one universal thought is kind of lol.

Then some are bad and some aren't. Simple as that. Inbalance is one of the biggest problems in Guild Wars and always has been. Anybody who works at Anet and doesn't understand this should be instafired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

When Broodwar for Starcraft first came out, Disruption Web on the Corsairs was insanely broken. It had the most indiscriminantly long duration, and with it, you could blanket entire bases/armies while your forces faceraped. Top players demanded a nerf or they'd quit. Blizzard took action accordingly.

ArenaNet is digging themselves into a hole here. At this point, I really do believe that their skill-balancing department has gone rogue, as has their Community Relations department. I have no clue what ANet thinks its doing, but I can tell you it's bad for business.

Truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

The DL-DU argument is valid to a certian point. I can say that if you prefer using a blue pen over a black one then the don't like it, dont use it argument can be applied.

The origional argument here is that with the recent skill seperation, title grind, etc. that has been added to the game has shifted the origional focus of the game away from it's main selling point the game origionally had and the origonal design of the game. Just because you have the choice of wether or not to use it, does not mean that it hasn't effected the game in a way that was completely 180 degrees away from the origonal design and concept of the game. When you can prove this otherwise, the DL-DU argument might have a leg to stand on in this discussion, but atm it is nothing more than a huge falacy.

Truth.

Avarre · Jun 10, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

This topic has been off topic for like the past 15 pages if you go by the OP.

I'll be honest. This thread is still open because I find it amusing.

It can keep going, I suppose.

zamial · Jun 10, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

What the PVE community wants. . .

Now that alone is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed statement. The community is split into a multitude of clusters:
hardcore/old school players
the casual/old schoolers
the new comers
the old/mature players
the youngsters
the RPG players
the skill > time players
if i leave out a cluster, I apologize. we know you are there.
people can actually fall into multiple clusters and the clusters seldom see "eye to eye".

people will complain that they need to have a button that gives them god mode and when they get it, it breaks the game. noone wants to feel like the character they have played for the last 2 weeks or more is worthless, this is human nature.

Noone wanted to glitch myllax in the door and have the necro SoS him to death but that was how it was done. Only the trinity plus a necro would ever be allowed to do it. This made all the other people that loved there other classes really mad. so we got a button. now we complain that the game is mindless , because it is. there is no possible way for the devs to possibly win in this senerio.

another fine example.
remember ToPK, when it came out? if you were not a monk or a necro or a ranger well, you did not get into a pug.

These are design flaws with the game. If the classes were truly balanced noone would care what class you were. so instead of actually redesigning the "elite" areas, the classes and the skills, we got a button.

another problem is with each new expansion the majority of the player base moved, it became thinner and thinner. noone wanted this.

my guild is in shambles, many have moved to a new game or are "taking a break" from gw.

Looking back at where I started playing this game and where I am now is 2 totally different games. I will not be the 1st person out the door on gw2 if that game flops or does not meet my expectations, ill sell my account on e-bay or just shelf it for the sake of the "good old days". I am already planning on getting a more adult game with better graphics than gw, that is more to my tastes.

I fear for the future of guild wars and anet. I am a gamer, not a button pusher. I like the new and unexpected not routine. "take me here", "fetch me a sandwich" or "kill X" quests get old. Do not get me wrong, I love this game but the luster is gone, my friends in-game are dwindling or gone as well. we still chat in our team speak but it is not the same...the sweet taste of victory of defeating a challenge has been replaced with the flavor of water, it is so . . . blan.

Melody Cross · Jun 10, 2008, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

I fear for the future of guild wars and anet. I am a gamer, not a button pusher. I like the new and unexpected not routine. "take me here", "fetch me a sandwich" or "kill X" quests get old. Do not get me wrong, I love this game but the luster is gone, my friends in-game are dwindling or gone as well. we still chat in our team speak but it is not the same...the sweet taste of victory of defeating a challenge has been replaced with the flavor of water, it is so . . . blan.

You sir, deserve a cookie. Couldn't have put it better myself.

DarkGanni · Jun 10, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51

People complain cause some skills are unusable and not worth it.
People STILL complain when the skills are buffed and now usable.

The way I see it, rather have an overused skill than a forgotten skill, and that's something ether renewal was a frickin dead skill. Now that it's buffed shut up and enjoy it. kthxbai said what I had to say.

~ Ganni ~

DarkNecrid · Jun 10, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'll be honest. This thread is still open because I find it amusing.

It can keep going, I suppose.

Yes, it is very amusing.

If that topic wasn't locked, I'd totally point that one dude to this topic on mods not censoring...

EDIT: Plus I think its good every once and awhile to let these things go on, and get a bit out of hand personally, from my own modding experience. It let's people let off some steam and really talk to each other rather than just NOURSAN THREADS or whatever.

Quote:

Then some are bad and some aren't. Simple as that. Inbalance is one of the biggest problems in Guild Wars and always has been. Anybody who works at Anet and doesn't understand this should be instafired.

Agreed, but they don't want to hurt the precious PUGs who are so dumb they think Mesmers are completely worthless or whatever so they gave every class a bone.

It's just a bone that kills things pretty quickly and safely.

Lopezus · Jun 10, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Screw it, I'll just pick up an example of "Don't like it don't use it".

Me: Hey mum, I'm smoking weed now and it feels good!
Mum: What?! Stop that RIGHT now!
Me: Don't like it don't use it, it doesn't affect you!

Fail.
First this not the right analogy it should be like:
Completly Anonymous Person A in country X: Hey , I'm smoking weed now and it feels good!
Completly Anonymous Person B in country Z: What?! Stop that RIGHT now!
Completly Anonymous Person A in country X: Don't like it don't use it, it doesn't affect you!

and now second failure, you ended your diaogue in moment where person B should provide some valid argument against person A but you didn't come up with any.

Quote:

Even though I'm sure 500 posts some now even after that some random guy will say DLDU it even after it's been talked about 600 times over

600 times it was only said that DLDU is not valid but that's not how arguments should be invalidiated or validiated, because even if you said that something is invalid 1 milion times it won't logically make it invalid.

Quote:

Or even then, don't like Ursan, don't PuG

That's not the case of game balance but of Pug mentality, which was the case long before any pve skills were introduced.

Thing is that there are so many diffrent opinions what PvE balance means, so it's hard to please everyone so i would opt for solution that is not enforced on everyone but is rather giving choice.

zwei2stein · Jun 10, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Agreed, but they don't want to hurt the precious PUGs who are so dumb they think Mesmers are completely worthless or whatever so they gave every class a bone.

To be fair, mesmers are far from very useful must-have-in-party too.

Why? Imbalance.

Because anet designed and balanced that class primarily for PvP use, which left it lacking in PvE department. Sadly, anet repeated that mistake with assassin class.

Its like noone asked questions like:

* Does person lacking reflexes/good ping have enough important stuff to interrupt to benefit party? Enough important hexes and enchants to shatter?
* Wouldnt bosses with halved hex durations / halved cast times be too unfriendly mesmers?
* Why are we giving necromancers SS if it looks like elite domination skill?

( * Why are we giving monsters inherent death nova skill when facing newbie low-al meele class. Couldn't it kinda ... hurt class reputation?)

DreamWind · Jun 10, 2008, 07:28 AM // 07:28

I can't believe "Don't like Don't use" is still coming up. I honestly can't believe it. I fear for the future of humanity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

600 times it was only said that DLDU is not valid but that's not how arguments should be invalidiated or validiated, because even if you said that something is invalid 1 milion times it won't logically make it invalid.

"Don't like Dont use" has been invalidated numerous times over throughout this thread.

SIMPLIFIED INVALIDATION OF DLDU

1. A problem is affecting Guild Wars
2. Some people choose to ignore the problem
3. The problem is still affecting Guild Wars

DLDU IS garbage end of story. If you want to argue that Guild Wars doesn't HAVE a problem then you can argue that way, but saying "Don't like Don't use" does absolutely nothing for your argument and adds nothing to the thread (other than people laughing).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Thing is that there are so many diffrent opinions what PvE balance means, so it's hard to please everyone so i would opt for solution that is not enforced on everyone but is rather giving choice.

The problem becomes when the inbalance affects other people and the entire game in general (as in people bought the game expecting none of this crap would be in it). All of the changes made to Guild Wars have largely affected how many people can play Guild Wars (particularly in PvP but also in PvE).

Symeon · Jun 10, 2008, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

DLDU IS garbage end of story. If you want to argue that Guild Wars doesn't HAVE a problem then you can argue that way, but saying "Don't like Don't use" does absolutely nothing for your argument and adds nothing to the thread (other than people laughing).

This. And the main problem is that this issue has driven the thread wayyy off topic.

Any further mention of "Don't like it, don't use it" will have your post deleted because it does not contribute to the discussion.

Cacheelma · Jun 10, 2008, 08:33 AM // 08:33

1. With the introduction of overpowered skills (pve only or whatever), especially ones that are linked to title-grinding, GW as a game has changed into something different from what it's used to be. This isn't an opinion.

2. Some people choose to ignore it.

3. The game still has changed.

Some people may like the fact that it changed, some people might not; that's opinion.